Comments for http://coffeewithlouis.wordpress.com A Church of Scotland Blog written in the North East of Scotland Sat, 14 Nov 2009 23:05:26 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 Comment on ‘Because there was no room for them in the (Dundee) Inn’ by Young Mr. Brown http://coffeewithlouis.wordpress.com/2009/11/13/because-there-was-no-room-for-them-in-the-dundee-inn/#comment-1312 Young Mr. Brown Sat, 14 Nov 2009 23:05:26 +0000 http://coffeewithlouis.wordpress.com/?p=1494#comment-1312 Speaking of Calvin, you may or may not have come across the following fascinating historical nugget: <b>Top Ten Things that Calvin edited out of his Institutes just before publication of the 1536 edition:</b> 10. Indulgent reference to King Francis I as a "Wine-swilling little Popemeister" 9. Book I's lengthy outline of a 12-step program for counseling Adult Children of Codependent Pelagians 8. Dustjacket endorsement from J.I. Packer 7. His overused phrase "rootin'-tootin" 6. Perforated tear-out coupons for half-price pints at a popular Genevan alehouse 5. In the chapter on Common Grace in Book II, his argument for the lawfulness of Christian rock artists signing with secular recording labels 4. The scholarly footnotes by translator Ford Lewis Battles (fortunately rediscovered in 1960) 3. Photo insert of Calvin, decked in shades and a furry guitar shaped like Texas, impersonating ZZ Top bandmembers 2. The detailed outline of the rules for Lawn Bowling in his exposition on the fourth commandment 1. Gary North's preface boasting, "Calvin's Institutes will one day be as influential as Rushdoony's Institutes. . . . " Speaking of Calvin, you may or may not have come across the following fascinating historical nugget:

Top Ten Things that Calvin edited out of his Institutes just before publication of the 1536 edition:

10. Indulgent reference to King Francis I as a “Wine-swilling little Popemeister”

9. Book I’s lengthy outline of a 12-step program for counseling Adult Children of Codependent Pelagians

8. Dustjacket endorsement from J.I. Packer

7. His overused phrase “rootin’-tootin”

6. Perforated tear-out coupons for half-price pints at a popular Genevan alehouse

5. In the chapter on Common Grace in Book II, his argument for the lawfulness of Christian rock artists signing with secular recording labels

4. The scholarly footnotes by translator Ford Lewis Battles (fortunately rediscovered in 1960)

3. Photo insert of Calvin, decked in shades and a furry guitar shaped like Texas, impersonating ZZ Top bandmembers

2. The detailed outline of the rules for Lawn Bowling in his exposition on the fourth commandment

1. Gary North’s preface boasting, “Calvin’s Institutes will one day be as influential as Rushdoony’s Institutes. . . . “

]]> Comment on ‘Because there was no room for them in the (Dundee) Inn’ by louis http://coffeewithlouis.wordpress.com/2009/11/13/because-there-was-no-room-for-them-in-the-dundee-inn/#comment-1311 louis Sat, 14 Nov 2009 20:36:39 +0000 http://coffeewithlouis.wordpress.com/?p=1494#comment-1311 Dear Young Mr Brown, the Westminster Divines probably would have said 'No way!' But Calvin might possibly have unwrapped a mince pie and said 'this is entirely an indifferent matter. Dear Young Mr Brown, the Westminster Divines probably would have said ‘No way!’ But Calvin might possibly have unwrapped a mince pie and said ‘this is entirely an indifferent matter.

]]> Comment on ‘Because there was no room for them in the (Dundee) Inn’ by Young Mr. Brown http://coffeewithlouis.wordpress.com/2009/11/13/because-there-was-no-room-for-them-in-the-dundee-inn/#comment-1310 Young Mr. Brown Sat, 14 Nov 2009 17:18:02 +0000 http://coffeewithlouis.wordpress.com/?p=1494#comment-1310 Excellent post, sir. I too am all for clear water between church and society. However, your post is not very Presbyterian. Christmas? Nativity scenes? Whatever would the Westminster Divines say? ;-) Excellent post, sir. I too am all for clear water between church and society.

However, your post is not very Presbyterian.

Christmas? Nativity scenes? Whatever would the Westminster Divines say?

;-)

]]> Comment on ‘Because there was no room for them in the (Dundee) Inn’ by Edro http://coffeewithlouis.wordpress.com/2009/11/13/because-there-was-no-room-for-them-in-the-dundee-inn/#comment-1308 Edro Sat, 14 Nov 2009 11:30:11 +0000 http://coffeewithlouis.wordpress.com/?p=1494#comment-1308 Hi Louis, Great post, and thought-provoking. I like the idea of getting out of our pews and doing something active to celebrate the coming of Christ in the streets. Maybe active not-shopping-for-stuff would be a start? Grace and peace, Ed Hi Louis,

Great post, and thought-provoking. I like the idea of getting out of our pews and doing something active to celebrate the coming of Christ in the streets.

Maybe active not-shopping-for-stuff would be a start?

Grace and peace,

Ed

]]> Comment on ‘Because there was no room for them in the (Dundee) Inn’ by william http://coffeewithlouis.wordpress.com/2009/11/13/because-there-was-no-room-for-them-in-the-dundee-inn/#comment-1307 william Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:01:10 +0000 http://coffeewithlouis.wordpress.com/?p=1494#comment-1307 Well done Louis for highlighting that as far as the church is concerned in accusing local authorities of abandoning sacred values it should remember the proverb about people in glass houses! We in the church are hardly in a position to express sorrow that society is turning from the christian faith when we in the Church of Scotland have departed from so much that is fundamental to christianity. Indeed have we not been the ones who in the words of Isaiah have prepared the straight paths for the secularists of our day to go out and claim the minds of our generation. How many from within the church who would find problems with Dundee City Council's abandoning of 'Christmas' have already abandoned the belief that the wonder of Christmas is God became flesh and came and lived among us for a span? Far less that He appeared through the Virgin conception of Mary by the Holy Spirit! All the best with your proposals for church action in Dundee and Aberdeen! Well done Louis for highlighting that as far as the church is concerned in accusing local authorities of abandoning sacred values it should remember the proverb about people in glass houses!
We in the church are hardly in a position to express sorrow that society is turning from the christian faith when we in the Church of Scotland have departed from so much that is fundamental to christianity. Indeed have we not been the ones who in the words of Isaiah have prepared the straight paths for the secularists of our day to go out and claim the minds of our generation.
How many from within the church who would find problems with Dundee City Council’s abandoning of ‘Christmas’ have already abandoned the belief that the wonder of Christmas is God became flesh and came and lived among us for a span? Far less that He appeared through the Virgin conception of Mary by the Holy Spirit!
All the best with your proposals for church action in Dundee and Aberdeen!

]]> Comment on You couldn’t make this up! by Mike http://coffeewithlouis.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/you-couldnt-make-this-up/#comment-1301 Mike Fri, 13 Nov 2009 21:27:46 +0000 http://coffeewithlouis.wordpress.com/?p=1483#comment-1301 I have to say I agree with both sides. I fully share Louis' sense of anger that this is the worst thing a minister can do. The problem is the cost. To permit some to remain outwith a Manse means that the rest are all immediately liable for at least £3,000 of tax, every year that we remain in a Manse. That's a big ask on everyone else from the few who are trying to remain outwith the Manse system. So in the meantime it has to be enforced, with some justifiable exceptions. On the other hand, I have argued (and failed to win the argument with the Ministries Council or Assembly) that we need to dismantle the entire system, and find a way to provide a few Manses in remote locations and provide a system to move us all out. I'm also not sure that the Inland Revenue is willing to consider a phased withdrawal. yours Mike I have to say I agree with both sides. I fully share Louis’ sense of anger that this is the worst thing a minister can do.

The problem is the cost. To permit some to remain outwith a Manse means that the rest are all immediately liable for at least £3,000 of tax, every year that we remain in a Manse. That’s a big ask on everyone else from the few who are trying to remain outwith the Manse system. So in the meantime it has to be enforced, with some justifiable exceptions.

On the other hand, I have argued (and failed to win the argument with the Ministries Council or Assembly) that we need to dismantle the entire system, and find a way to provide a few Manses in remote locations and provide a system to move us all out. I’m also not sure that the Inland Revenue is willing to consider a phased withdrawal.

yours

Mike

]]> Comment on You couldn’t make this up! by Louis http://coffeewithlouis.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/you-couldnt-make-this-up/#comment-1297 Louis Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:51:03 +0000 http://coffeewithlouis.wordpress.com/?p=1483#comment-1297 Soldiers are generally permitted to live where they choose, security considerations being equal Soldiers are generally permitted to live where they choose, security considerations being equal

]]> Comment on You couldn’t make this up! by James A. Morris http://coffeewithlouis.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/you-couldnt-make-this-up/#comment-1296 James A. Morris Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:34:57 +0000 http://coffeewithlouis.wordpress.com/?p=1483#comment-1296 Thank you, Louis, for the first words of sense - and compassion - I have read on this subject. David, it is emphatically NOT 'a minister's job to live in his or her manse'. To make such a statement on behalf of the Christian church in Scotland really does put the church in a position of easy ridicule. It is clear that Rev Munro is being made an example of here and this is a political issue. I am 30 years old and this situation is another one of many which put me in a position where I no longer wish to be associated with the Church of Scotland and, in particular, the Presbytery of Edinburgh who seem outmoded, farcical, unfeeling and rigid. Never was the Church of Scotland in greater trouble than it is now and all by its own making. Thank you, Louis, for the first words of sense – and compassion – I have read on this subject.

David, it is emphatically NOT ‘a minister’s job to live in his or her manse’. To make such a statement on behalf of the Christian church in Scotland really does put the church in a position of easy ridicule.

It is clear that Rev Munro is being made an example of here and this is a political issue.

I am 30 years old and this situation is another one of many which put me in a position where I no longer wish to be associated with the Church of Scotland and, in particular, the Presbytery of Edinburgh who seem outmoded, farcical, unfeeling and rigid. Never was the Church of Scotland in greater trouble than it is now and all by its own making.

]]> Comment on You couldn’t make this up! by David Shedden http://coffeewithlouis.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/you-couldnt-make-this-up/#comment-1295 David Shedden Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:22:15 +0000 http://coffeewithlouis.wordpress.com/?p=1483#comment-1295 Tim, it is a minister's job to live in his or her manse, unless given permission otherwise... if an office worker was consistently late for work, he or she would not be able to use the excuse "I was working from home..." The problem is not so much that Presbytery is right or wrong or just petty in this case... it's more that the move is too little too late in terms of a mutual and corporate oversight of parish ministers according to agreed standards and principles of conduct. Ministers have little effective management and oversight in their work... hence the outcry when people in Presbytery actually do take action against ministers not working up to the standards our people deserve. Tim, it is a minister’s job to live in his or her manse, unless given permission otherwise… if an office worker was consistently late for work, he or she would not be able to use the excuse “I was working from home…”

The problem is not so much that Presbytery is right or wrong or just petty in this case… it’s more that the move is too little too late in terms of a mutual and corporate oversight of parish ministers according to agreed standards and principles of conduct. Ministers have little effective management and oversight in their work… hence the outcry when people in Presbytery actually do take action against ministers not working up to the standards our people deserve.

]]> Comment on You couldn’t make this up! by Tim Still http://coffeewithlouis.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/you-couldnt-make-this-up/#comment-1292 Tim Still Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:34:38 +0000 http://coffeewithlouis.wordpress.com/?p=1483#comment-1292 Interesting to think that God can call someone to be a minister to his people, however we as humans seem to think we're above that, making the descision whether or not they should be fired over such a silly trivial matter instead of letting them do the job God has called them to do! If this story has gone out in the press (which it has!) we need to consider what impression this gives to people of the church and of us as Christians. Interesting to think that God can call someone to be a minister to his people, however we as humans seem to think we’re above that, making the descision whether or not they should be fired over such a silly trivial matter instead of letting them do the job God has called them to do!
If this story has gone out in the press (which it has!) we need to consider what impression this gives to people of the church and of us as Christians.

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